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Author Topic: What is Tools/Oberon?  (Read 8465 times)
dukester
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« on: August 02, 2010, 10:42:43 PM »

I think that's where it is - in Tools.

It looks like a "tiled" version of some incarnation of Oberon OS. What's all _that_ about?

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duke
staubesv
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« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2010, 09:00:16 AM »

Main Menu -> Tools -> Oberon is the old ETH Oberon running as application under A2. If you want to use that with the gadgets desktop, middle-click the command Desktops.Open Oberon.desk ~ found in the Popups.Tool panel.
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dukester
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« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2010, 02:11:21 PM »

Main Menu -> Tools -> Oberon is the old ETH Oberon running as application under A2. If you want to use that with the gadgets desktop, middle-click the command Desktops.Open Oberon.desk ~ found in the Popups.Tool panel.

When you say, "old ETH Oberon", how old do you mean? Is it the OS based on Oberon2? Can this system be installed "native", i.e. NOT running within A2?
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duke
staubesv
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« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2010, 02:56:00 PM »

Native Oberon (x86 port of ETH Oberon) is an operating system written in the original Oberon language (not Oberon-2). It can be installed native (download at http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/downloads/index).
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dukester
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« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2010, 03:12:02 PM »

Native Oberon (x86 port of ETH Oberon) is an operating system written in the original Oberon language (not Oberon-2). It can be installed native (download at http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/downloads/index).

Is there a version of the Oberon OS that is written in Oberon-2? I want to sync my language-learning efforts with the other non-ETH compilers that I will be using - like Mike Spivey's `obc', and `oo2c'.
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duke
staubesv
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« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2010, 03:56:24 PM »

Ooops... I have to "soften" my statement above: I think that Native Oberon is written in Oberon (not Oberon-2).... Wikipedia claims that it is written in Oberon-2.
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dukester
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« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2010, 04:15:41 PM »

Is there a way to find out for sure if it's Oberon-2?

Also, what do I need to do to install this "Native Oberon" - DL all those files unto separate diskettes?

In A2, is there a way to program in Oberon-2 by default?
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duke
staubesv
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« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2010, 10:02:03 AM »

Quote
Is there a way to find out for sure if it's Oberon-2?
I've just had a look at differences between Oberon and Oberon-2 and found out that Native Oberon is definitely programmed in Oberon-2.

Quote
Also, what do I need to do to install this "Native Oberon" - DL all those files unto separate diskettes?
AFAIK, you need to boot your computer from the .dsk disk to install Oberon. This is a floppy disk image. With tools as Ahead Nero, you can also create a bootable CD-ROM using this image.
For the other ZIP files, it should be enough to have them on a FAT volume that can be mounted when installing NO.

I suggest you start a "How to install Native Oberon" topic in the Native Oberon board.
I'm not a NO user but there are many people on this forum that used and/or still use Native Oberon. I'm sure they can provide you some help on how-to install Native Oberon.

Quote
In A2, is there a way to program in Oberon-2 by default?
No. You can write and compile Oberon-2 programs using the PACO compiler, but it won't complain when you use constructs not available in Obeorn-2. The OP2 Compiler of NO is a Oberon-2 compiler, however. AFAIK, OP2 of the Oberon running under A2 is broken.

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dukester
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« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2010, 12:13:22 AM »

Quote
Is there a way to find out for sure if it's Oberon-2?
I've just had a look at differences between Oberon and Oberon-2 and found out that Native Oberon is definitely programmed in Oberon-2.

Excellent! This might compel me to stay with ETH systems. I'll see...

Quote
Quote
Also, what do I need to do to install this "Native Oberon" - DL all those files unto separate diskettes?
AFAIK, you need to boot your computer from the .dsk disk to install Oberon. This is a floppy disk image. With tools as Ahead Nero, you can also create a bootable CD-ROM using this image.
For the other ZIP files, it should be enough to have them on a FAT volume that can be mounted when installing NO.

OK! I think I understand the process.

Quote
I suggest you start a "How to install Native Oberon" topic in the Native Oberon board.
I'm not a NO user but there are many people on this forum that used and/or still use Native Oberon. I'm sure they can provide you some help on how-to install Native Oberon.

Do you mean the ETH - Oberon board?

Quote
Quote
In A2, is there a way to program in Oberon-2 by default?
No. You can write and compile Oberon-2 programs using the PACO compiler, but it won't complain when you use constructs not available in Obeorn-2. The OP2 Compiler of NO is a Oberon-2 compiler, however. AFAIK, OP2 of the Oberon running under A2 is broken.

So if I stick to Oberon-2 syntax and constructs, PACO should compile the code cleanly? Do I have to give PACO any special command to go into Oberon-2 mode? Using "context"?? For example, how would I tell PACO to IMPORT the Out module? In some of my "learning" code where I import that module, the code compiles but does not run. It just freezes the PET.

When are you going to fix OP2 of the Oberon on A2  Grin That would make A2 more backwards compatible would it not?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 12:20:48 AM by dukester » Logged

duke
staubesv
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« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2010, 09:30:45 AM »

Quote
Do you mean the ETH - Oberon board?
Yes.

Quote
So if I stick to Oberon-2 syntax and constructs, PACO should compile the code cleanly?
Almost (see below), since Active Oberon is (almost) a superset of Oberon-2. There are no command line options required to compile Oberon-2 source code using PACO.

Quote
For example, how would I tell PACO to IMPORT the Out module?
IMPORT
   Out IN Oberon;  (* this is not Oberon-2 *)

Problem:
The source code originally written for Native Oberon (all files prefixed with "Oberon.") relies on the presence of the Native Oberon System (native or as application under A2). These modules require the Native Oberon system to be started and initialized. If you just import such a module from A2 code while Native Oberon is not running, the behaviour is not defined.

Note, however, that if you don't use modules originally written for Native Oberon, this is not an issue. In this case, you don't need the Oberon namespace (Out IN Oberon) and the code is a superset of Oberon-2.

OP2 won't be fixed.

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Bernhard T.
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« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2010, 02:14:24 PM »

Quote
Is there a way to find out for sure if it's Oberon-2?
I've just had a look at differences between Oberon and Oberon-2 and found out that Native Oberon is definitely programmed in Oberon-2.

hmm, I just fired up my dedicated Pentium 133 running PC Native Oberon (Vs. ? od 5.Jan.2003). It is running on a 15 years old box, but it is absolutely sufficient for Native Oberon. I remember that most of NO was written in pure Oberon and not Oberon-2, so I tried to check that.

Just browsing through some of the low level sources (Kernel.Mod, OFS.Mod and some more) did not reveal any Oberon-2 contructs, but some constructs, which imply that it is pure Oberon and not Oberon-2.

To my knowledge, the variant of NO, which used Oberon-2 and Object Orientation consequently from buttom up was ETHOS by Clemens Szyperski. See http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/cszypers/books/insight-ethos.htm but sorrily there aren't any sources of ETHOS. Clemens Szyperski mentioned vaguely that he might dig out the sources as "historic curiosity".

regards
    Bernhard
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dukester
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« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2010, 04:09:56 PM »

To my knowledge, the variant of NO, which used Oberon-2 and Object Orientation consequently from buttom up was ETHOS by Clemens Szyperski. See http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/cszypers/books/insight-ethos.htm but sorrily there aren't any sources of ETHOS. Clemens Szyperski mentioned vaguely that he might dig out the sources as "historic curiosity".

That would be _very cool_ if he could do that!  I'm surprised that ETH has not archived the source code for him.
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duke
Bernhard T.
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« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2010, 05:50:36 PM »

...
OP2 won't be fixed.


i.e. only Paco, no other compiler, no chance for bootstrapping Paco in another environment, where only OP2 is available.

That is a pity and will isolate Active Oberon in the long run ...

Bernhard
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